Βικιλεξικό:Βικιδημία/2023Vector

Φίλοι επισκέπτες και συνάδελφοι συντάκτες, η Wikimedia Foundation σκοπεύει να αλλάξει την εμφάνιση των σελίδων μας. Παρακαλούμε, καταθέστε την άποψή σας στο +, -, ή στα σχόλια (δεν είναι ψηφοφορία)
Dear guests and fellow editors: WMF wishes to change the appearance of our pages. Please give your opinion, in any language at +, -, or at comments (this is not a vote).
τεστ/test: τώρα/now vectorClassic > αλλάζει σε/will be νέο/new Vector2022

επιλέξτε στιλ αυτής της σελίδας / choose this page's desktop style:	vectorClassic - Vector2022 - monobook - timeless
αν έχετε λογαριασμό / logged-in users:	Global Preferences     >     ✓ O     >     Save

The Vector 2022 skin as the default in three weeks?

Moved from Βικιλεξικό:Βικιδημία/messages/2023#The Vector 2022 skin as the default in three weeks? ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 12:16, 26 Οκτωβρίου 2023 (UTC)

Read this in your language • Παρακαλώ βοηθήστε να γίνει μετάφραση στη γλώσσα σας • Please tell other users about these changes

Hello. I'm writing on behalf of the Wikimedia Foundation Web team. In two weeks, we would like to make the Vector 2022 skin the default on this wiki.

Καθολικές προτιμήσεις

If you prefer keeping the current skin select "Vector legacy (2010)" on the appearance tab of the global preferences and save the change. We encourage you to give the new skin a try, though.

Since I last came to you with this question, many things have changed. The skin is now the default on most Wikipedias, and all logos are done! We have also made some tweaks in the skin itself. Below is the text I've sent to you once, but I'm sending it again, just slightly edited, for those who haven't seen it.

If you know what this is about, jump straight to the section "Our plan":

It would become the default for all logged-out users, and also all logged-in users who currently use Vector legacy as a local (but not global) preference. Logged-in users can at any time switch to any other skin. No changes are expected for these skins.

• Top of an article
• 
  Vector legacy (current default)
• 
  Vector 2022

• A section of an article
• 
  Vector legacy (current default)
• 
  Vector 2022

About the skin

Slides to our Wikimania 2022 presentation. You may also listen to the recording on YouTube (in English).

[Why is a change necessary] When the current default skin was created, it reflected the needs of the readers and editors as these were 14 years ago. Since then, new users have begun using the Internet and Wikimedia projects in different ways. The old Vector does not meet their needs.

[Objective] The objective for the Vector 2022 skin is to make the interface more welcoming and comfortable for readers and useful for advanced users. It introduces a series of changes that aim to improve problems new and existing readers and editors were having with the old skin. It draws inspiration from previous user requests, the Community Wishlist Surveys, and gadgets and scripts. The work helped our code follow the standards and improve all other skins. The PHP code in the other available skins has been reduced by 75%. The project has also focused on making it easier to support gadgets and use APIs.

[Changes in a nutshell] The skin introduces changes that improve readability and usability. The new skin does not remove any functionality currently available on the Vector skin.

• The limited width and pin-able menus allow to adjust the interface to the screen size, and focus on editing or reading. Logged-in and logged-out users may use a toggle button to keep the full width, though.
• The sticky header makes it easier to find tools that editors use often. It decreases scrolling to the top of the page by 16%.
• The new table of contents makes it easier to navigate to different sections. Readers and editors jump to different sections of the page 50% more than with the old table of contents. It also looks a bit different on talk pages.
• The new search bar is easier to find and makes it easier to find the correct search result from the list. This increased the amount of searches started by 30% on the tested wikis.
• The skin does not negatively affect pageviews, edit rates, or account creation. There is evidence of increases in pageviews and account creation across partner communities.

[Customize this skin] It's possible to configure and personalize our changes. We support volunteers who create new gadgets and user scripts. Check out the repository for a list of currently available customizations and changes, or add your own.

Our plan

If no large concerns are raised, we plan on deploying on 14 November. If you'd like to ask our team anything, if you have questions, concerns, or additional thoughts, please comment in any language. We will gladly answer! Also, check out our FAQ. Thank you! SGrabarczuk (WMF) (συζήτηση) 01:09, 26 Οκτωβρίου 2023 (UTC)

Απάντηση Reply

alert all active editors - ΕΙΔΟΠΟΙΗΣΗ προς ενεργούς συντάκτες ☏ Svlioras · Chalk19 · Costaud · FocalPoint · Texniths · Τυχαίος Χρήστης ☏ Angeloflol · Avacalop · Bolt Escargot · Corfurian · Ελβετός · Kupirijo ☏ Llevantine · Nikos1nikos1 · Stepanps · Stephilippou · Wrooooooo

Συνάδελφοι εθελοντές! & κοινοποίηση στην WMF, Ko. SGrabarczuk (WMF). Η Wikimedia Foundation στέλνει τέτοια γράμματα σε πολλά βικιεγχειρήματα ανακοινώνοντας την αλλαγή εμφάνισης σε υπολογιστή με default τον Vector2022 (δεν αφορά τα κινητά). Δείτε #παραδείγματα με παλιό και καινούγιο skin. Όσοι έχουν λογαριασμό, μπορούν να επιλέγουν όποιο skin θέλουν στο Global Preferences > ✓ O > Save Αλλά οι επισκέπτες μας χωρίς λογαριασμό, δε θα έχουν δυνατότητα επιλογής.	Fellow volunteers! & notifying WMF, Mr SGrabarczuk (WMF). Wikimedia Foundation sends such letters to many wikiprojects announcing the change at style of desktop pages with Vector2022 as default (this is not about mobile phones). See #examples with previous and new skin. Logged-in users may choose the skin of their choice at Global Preferences > ✓ O > Save But our unlogged guests, shall not have this option.
Ήδη υπάρχει προ-ενημέρωσή μας στη Βικιδημία. Το νέο 'skin' εμφάνισης λέγεται Vector 2022 και κληθήκαμε να το δοκιμάσουμε. (Υπάρχει σε διάφορες βικιπαίδειες. Στο γαλλικό βικιλεξικό εφαρμόστηκε πειραματικά.)	Our pre-notification is available at our Wikiacademy. The new 'skin' is called Vector 2022 and we were asked to try it out. (It exists at various wikipedias. At the French wiktionary it was tested experimentally).
Υπό κανονικές συνθήκες πάντα συζητάμε και ψηφίζουμε για σημαντικές αλλαγές. Αλλά αυτή η αλλαγή είναι υποχρεωτική επειδή το 'skin' είναι ιδιοκτησία της WMF. Δεν έχει νόημα να ψηφίσουμε. De facto, δικαίωμα κατάθεσης όρων για την αποδοχή έχουν εγχειρήματα με πολλούς αναγνώστες και δωρεές όπως η αγγλική ΒΠ. H γερμανική Βικιπαίδεια, δεν υπάγεται στη wikimedia, αλλά έχει δική της Wikimedia Deutschland. Οι υπόλοιποι, δεν έχουμε τέτοιο δικαίωμα.	Under normal circumstances, we always discuss and vote for important changes. But this change is compulsory because the 'skin' is the property of WMF. There is no point voting. De facto, a right to demand specific terms for accepting is granted only to wikiprojects with many readers and donations like the English Wikipedia. The German Wikipedia is not subject to wikimedia, but to Wikimedia Deutschland. The rest of us, do not have such rights.
Αλλά δε μας απαγορεύει κανείς να καταθέσουμε τις απόψεις μας κάτω από τα '#σχόλια comments' ή την υπογραφή μας στο '+ Ο Vector2022 είναι κατάλληλος για wiktionary' ή κάτω από το '- Ο Vector2022 δεν είναι κατάλληλος για wiktionary' Μπορούν να γράψουν τις απόψιες τους και αναγνώστες, καθώς αυτό δεν είναι ψηφοφορία. Παρακαλούμε να λάβετε υπ' όψιν σας όλα τα είδη σελίδων όπως στα #παραδείγματα που ακολουθούν.	But there is no restritction for giving opinions under '#comments' or placing our signature under '+ Vector2002 is suitable for wiktionaries' or '- Vector2002 is not suitable for wiktionaries' below. Readers too may write their opinion, as this is not a voting. Please take under consideration the following 'examples' of different kinds of pages.

Ευχαριστώ, Thank you. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 13:04, 26 Οκτωβρίου 2023 (UTC)

παραδείγματα examples

• TEST skins for wiktionaries - ΔΟΚΙΜΕΣ στιλ Βικιλεξικό:Βικιδημία/2023Vector/testSarri
• λήμμα/lemma:σκληρός?useskin=vector] / λήμμα/lemma:σκληρός?useskin=vector-2022]
  λήμμα/lemma:table?useskin=vector] / λήμμα/lemma:table?useskin=vector-2022]
• κατηγορία/category?useskin=vector] / κατηγορία/category?useskin=vector-2022]
• παράρτημα/appendix?useskin=vector] / παράρτημα/appendix?useskin=vector-2022]

συζητήσεις talks, links

cf:

• @mediawiki Talk:Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements/Archive8, Archive 9, 10
• @en.wikipedia Talk:Vector_2022 Archive 1 etc
• @en.wikipeida Rollback of Vector 2022
• @de.wikipedia Vector 2022 als Standardskin

&

• @meta WMF Board of Trustees
• @mediawiki Web Team members

+ Ο Vector2022 είναι κατάλληλος για wiktionary

Γράψτε #, και υπογραφή
Vector2002 is suitable for wiktionaries - Write # and signature

1. I have been working with the new skin for months. It is OK, convenient (eventually) and a bit easier. Note that, for comparison purposes, I have kept the old skin in other projects. I believe all the complaints below are just the usual "resistance to change" - but all these people can keep the old skin. I have no idea if they realise that. I also testify that because I was using the previous skin for many years, mechanically, I was looking at the wrong place, this is why I am writing "convenient (eventually)", but in the end, the new one is a bit better. Try it. --FocalPoint (συζήτηση) 15:29, 29 Οκτωβρίου 2023 (UTC)

‐ Ο Vector2022 δεν είναι κατάλληλος για wiktionary

Γράψτε #, και υπογραφή
Vector2002 is not suitable for wiktionaries - Write # and signature

1. Μου φαίνεται πως ο Vector2022 ΔΕΝ είναι κατάλληλος για wiktionary. I think Vector2022 is NOT suitable for wiktionary. --sVlioras (συζήτηση) 14:31, 26 Οκτωβρίου 2023 (UTC)
2. Εντελώς ακατάλληλος για πολύγλωσσο λεξικό - Totally unsuitable for a multi-language dictionary. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 14:34, 26 Οκτωβρίου 2023 (UTC)
3. Πιστεύω πως ο Vector2022 Δεν κάνει για το Βικιλεξικό. I believe that Vector2022 is Not a good implementation for Wiktionary. ---Bolt Escargot
4. O Vector2022 είναι ακατάλληλος για το Βικιλεξικό, γιατί είναι ελλιπής και κακοσχεδιασμένος -- Corfurian (talk) 17:33, 26 Οκτωβρίου 2023 (UTC)
5. The margins of a page are more obtrusive with Vector2022: There is (lagging) motion in the header when the page is scrolled, and the left side has large letters and spacings and is uneven. The menu system is more complex. I wish Vector2022 was more simple and quiet. --Ελβετός (συζήτηση) 19:58, 31 Οκτωβρίου 2023 (UTC)
6. copypaste from Βικιλεξικό:Βικιδημία/2023#Ο_Vector_2022_δεν_είναι_κατάλληλος
   Ο Vector 2022 δεν είναι κατάλληλος
   Αυτό, δεν έχω τίποτ' άλλο να πω. Προτιμώ το Vector 2010. Kostopius (συζήτηση) 17:56, 8 Νοεμβρίου 2023 (UTC)

   Γεια σας ☏ Kostopius, καλωσήρθατε στο Βικιλεξικό, κι ευχαριστούμε για τη συνεισφορά σας. Θα μπορούσατε να γράψετε τη γνώμη σας στο Βικιλεξικό:Βικιδημία/2023Vector#‐_Ο_Vector2022_δεν_είναι_κατάλληλος_για_wiktionary? γιατί εδώ που τα γράψατε, θα χαθεί. Να ξέρετε πάντως, ότι η αλλαγή αυτή, αποφασίζεται από την Wikimedia Foundation, ό,τι και να πούμε εμείς. Ευχαριστούμε, κι ελπίζουμε να έρθετε κοντά μας, και σα συντάκτης, όχι μόνο σαν αναγνώστης. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 18:48, 8 Νοεμβρίου 2023 (UTC)

   Θα μεταφέρουμε το σημείωμά σας εκεί. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 18:18, 11 Νοεμβρίου 2023 (UTC)

7. copied from Βικιλεξικό:Βικιδημία/2023#Το_Βικιλεξικό_θα_μείνει_ακμαίο!
   Το Βικιλεξικό θα μείνει ακμαίο!
   Πιστεύω πως το Βικιλέξικο πρέπει να μείνει όπως το έχουμε αγαπήσεις όλα αυτά τα χρόνια. Δεν πιστεύω πως θα ήταν σοφό να γίνει οποια΄δηπωτε αλλαγή! Παρακαλώ λάβετε υπόψη την άποψή μου, όπως και όλες τις υπόλοιπες! 2A02:587:B839:4000:E4D3:6C44:5982:7FC1 18:11, 11 Νοεμβρίου 2023 (UTC)

   Ευχαριστούμε! Θα μεταφέρουμε την άποψή σας στο Βικιλεξικό:Βικιδημία/2023Vector. Πάντως, οι αλλαγές δεν εξαρτώνται από μας. Παρ' όλ' αυτά, θα προσπαθήσουμε να έχουμε τα κατάλληλα links για να το βλέπετε, με το στιλ που επιθυμείτε. Θα συνεχίσουμε να προσπαθούμε να βελτιώνουμε το ΒΛεξικό... Ελπίζουμε και με τη δική σας βοήθεια. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 18:15, 11 Νοεμβρίου 2023 (UTC)

8. DO NOT DO IT, IT IS GOOD THE WAY IT IS. 2A02:85F:FCB8:6109:18F5:8469:A52B:946E 18:09, 11 Νοεμβρίου 2023 (UTC)

σχόλια comments

Γράψτε #, το σχόλιο και υπογραφή - Write #, your opinion and signature

1. Έχουμε αρχίσει να ψηφίζουμε, χωρίς καν να συζητήσουμε. Χωρίς καν να ρωτήσουμε και αυτούς που το σχεδίασαν αν έκαναν δοκιμές σε Βικιλεξικά. Το λέω γιατί οι δοκιμές που έκαναν, εν γένει έδειξαν βελτίωση στη συμπεριφορά των χρηστών.

   Δεν υπάρχουν ψηφοφορίες ☏ FocalPoint, μόνο γνώμες: είναι θέμα υποχρεωτικό. Δεν έχω δει κάπου τεστ ειδικώς για βικιλεξικά. (these here are not Votes, Focal). Also, I have not seen wiktionary-specific tests. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 18:10, 26 Οκτωβρίου 2023 (UTC)

2. από/from Sarri.greek Συγχωρήστε με που θα γράψω στα αγγλικά. Εξηγώ την αρνητική μου γνώμη. / Excuse me for writing in English to explain my negative view.
   Also notifying wiktionarians from other wikts like M^rs Noé, the soul of fr.wikt, from en.wikt ☏ Erutuon, programmer, admin and scholar for Ancient Greek, ☏ Mahagaja, admin and scholar for Ancient Greek, Benwing2, programmer and bureaucrat & of course my guru and mentor, admin for Modern Greek ☏ Saltmarsh. The subject of an electronic dict. style might be of some interest to Dr Moshe, but we understand that his professional work as etymologist does not allow time to check this matter.
   Main concerns for future changes, being aware that WMF has the legal right to procede with their own rationale:
   • wiktionaries are not wikipedias - dictionaries are not encyclopaediae
   • mobile views are "for a glance" - desktop views are for study
   • respect also unlogged guests who should have available a sitenotice.help to switch styles
   Wiktionary-needs & my opinion
   • Languages interwiki menu immediately available at the tips of our fingers near the Language.Sections. Unlike wikipedias (one cannot read the e.g. a Chinese article) for dictionary‑lemmata we hop from wikt to wikt all the time.
   • ToC may be repeated at any menu WMF desires, but the __TOC__ cannot be taken away from the editor's reponsibility (placing, choosing limits, style, orientation) at lemmata, Appendices, Categories, Help pages. Section titles at lemmata are standard (no random title is allowed) and repetitive (many language Sections in one page)
       I like horizontal ToCs like this test by language.section, or of the Vitnamese wiktionary's e.g. ξανθός@vi or culture@vi.
   • More economical menus (font-size, line-heights) cf monobook. If, alas, in the future WMF needs space to attract donations, this can fit.
   A page for studying and a non-profit page should be different from commercial pages and obviously such at first glance. A nod to the initial characteristic style of wikt should be eyecatching, along the necessary modernisation (Congratulations to the WMF engineers for taking care of invisible technical issues like storing data, jss, apis, phps.) For the visible things, our eyes to the future are focused on new applications like clickable words, auto.transliterations.ISO, phonetics, digital repositories and centralisation in interwiktionary fashion of all dataModules at a Common WikiBase and the financing of such efforts.
   It would help to ask WMF for contractor-programmers from en or fr.wiktionary. They are exposed to hundreds of languages. For the general approach of a wiktionary.For help to small wiktionary modules and as intermediaries to pages like the repository, phabricators.
   Thank you. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 18:11, 26 Οκτωβρίου 2023 (UTC)

   I find extremely easy the Table of Contents on the left. It is available always and it does not get in the way. For example, in the previous skin, if a larger TOC happens to be at the beginning of the lemma, when you have to scroll down to find the useful content. FocalPoint (συζήτηση) 18:18, 26 Οκτωβρίου 2023 (UTC)

   ☏ FocalPoint, as a wikipedian, you are not accustomed to check other wiktionaries. Wiktionarians cannot live without it. IF the languages are at left menu, then the TOC cannot -unfortunately- be there as well. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 18:22, 26 Οκτωβρίου 2023 (UTC)

   @Sarri.greek I have no idea what you are talking about. The TOC is at the left. All of it. The other languages, indeed, they are not on the left. They are always on the top right, always visible. As you say, we cannot live without it and it is available always - you dont have to scroll to find them ! FocalPoint (συζήτηση) 18:49, 26 Οκτωβρίου 2023 (UTC)

   ☏ FocalPoint it = the interwiki languages. Cf. above my text hopping from wikt to wikt & some examples. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 18:51, 26 Οκτωβρίου 2023 (UTC)

   @Sarri.greek, this is exactly what I am talking about. The interwikis in the new skin as ALWAYS visible under the xx γλώσσες, look at Agnes, 21 γλώσσες. FocalPoint (συζήτηση) 18:56, 26 Οκτωβρίου 2023 (UTC)

   In fact (and I am proud to say that I discussed this issue when this part was under development), you can search for the language you want. Try searching in greek for "ισλανδικά" ! It gives you "Íslenska" and takes you there ! Cool ! FocalPoint (συζήτηση) 19:03, 26 Οκτωβρίου 2023 (UTC)

   In fact with latin-character languages, it is easy..., but suppose that you want to find in June, the malaysian lemma. In the previous skin, it is impossible for me, because I do not know the name of the language. In the new skin, you just search for μαλαισιανά. Even better, try to find it in αραβικά. FocalPoint (συζήτηση) 19:18, 26 Οκτωβρίου 2023 (UTC)

3. I've never experimented with different skins on el:wikt, just using the default. I happened to be viewing a page with a wide table on en:wikt when I made these comments.
   • Vector-2022 is horizontally challenged, it over-runs the tools sidebar. And on the other side, the "Language links are at the top …" message might welcome at first viewing but it makes the left sidebar too wide.
   • General views:

   1. Most of us don't like change but get used to it.

   2. I cannot view the new layout with the eyes of a new Wiktionary user.

   3. A general view about "alternative skins": people make changes on a page which look fine to them but look crap with another skin. viz (on en:wikt) when using tabbed languages righthand infoboxes at the top of a page squeeze the page text unacceptably.
   

   I'm in a rush, this is a quickly assembled comment made without reading all of the above. — Saltmarsh^🢃 06:10, 27 Οκτωβρίου 2023 (UTC)

   Thank you ☏ Saltmarsh True: we will get used to any skin. Ah... the only thing is: I will have to go to some 1,000 pages to correct the __TOC__ which will be kaput. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 08:52, 27 Οκτωβρίου 2023 (UTC)

   No need to correct anything, the TOC can stay there, doing nothing. FocalPoint (συζήτηση) 10:47, 29 Οκτωβρίου 2023 (UTC)

   @Sarri.greek: I chose "Vector (2022)" in my preferences and the horizontal table of contents of the article "βασίλισσα" still looks good. Is there still a problem? Ελβετός (συζήτηση) 11:12, 29 Οκτωβρίου 2023 (UTC)

   ☏ Ελβετός, no problem, it is your choice, and you may put your signature above, at #+ opinions. Thank you! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 11:24, 29 Οκτωβρίου 2023 (UTC)

   @Sarri.greek I don't have an opinion about the choice. I just tried the difference between the skins for the first time. By "preferences", I meant the Βικιλεξικό settings, not an opinion. Ελβετός (συζήτηση) 11:35, 29 Οκτωβρίου 2023 (UTC)

4. Hi Sarri.greek, thank you for the notice. You suggested en.wiktionary or fr.wiktionary may have contrator-programmers. I don't know any. There is once in a while a developer for Lingua Libre, contracted by Wikimedia France, not by the Foundation. Almost all evolution are made by volunteers. I am quite sure the design experiments made on prototypes never included any Wiktionaries reader or contributor. Sadly, the new Vektor interface did not include Wiktionaries needs and I am quite sure it will not evolve to include them more. Attempts to make visible both the summary and links to other editions of Wiktionaries are interesting, but it is very hard to consider the best way without proper UX testing, and we can't organize them properly. We are limited to our own vision of power-user readers, not standard readers (I agree with Saltmarsh general views above). I support any effort to get more attention from the WMF devs, but I am not sure we could gain anything positive by critics against this new skin. Discussions on Meta and Phabricator are still open, you can try to reach the dev and advocate for us all 🙂 Noé (συζήτηση) 08:30, 27 Οκτωβρίου 2023 (UTC)

   Merci M^r ☏ Noé pour vos conseils (et merci pour l'anglais}. I have no problem, with any skin at all: I do not care of what is around our lemmata. But when I wish my reader to SEE something, I would like to be able to show it (__TOC__). Contractors: I thhhink WMF gets contractors paid for a specific job (not sure). E.g. to make a module somewhere, to do a cleanup. Small chores. I would give a donation, only for OUR wiktionary +under the regulations of WMF-, I would never give a donation in general... I hope this will happen, because small wikis are doomed. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 08:52, 27 Οκτωβρίου 2023 (UTC)

Προσαρμογές Modfications?

[by Sarri.greek] I have been testing Βικιλεξικό:Βικιδημία/2023Vector/testSarri, Vector2022. It has improved considerably since last year. It is not so bad as it was. At wiktionaries we miss 2 things. Hopefully they could be added with minor modifications

• Wiktionarians need to see the number of language-sections in the page. The old TOC was numbered. A modification would be, to add a numbered preferably horizontal toc (with a module or something) in the bodytext. Also a toclimit horizontal is needed very much. If not, we will need to write it by hand at approx. 150-200 pages.
• Wiktionarians need to click immediately interwiki en.wikt, fr.wikt, mother-language.wikt, et.al. A modification would be to add a few visible codes before the 'XX languages'
• and some minor Βικιλεξικό:Βικιδημία/2023Vector/testSarri#notes, if anyone from the WMF teams care to take a look (for wiktionary and not wikipedia).

Why not have a switch at en.wikt first. We wonder, what their suggestions would be. (many power users though there: they have their own skins).
If the change happens without these features, we would appreciate some help (there are no programmers in our little community) from the WMF Tech experts, (notifying Mr SWilson_(WMF) who helped us with phonos (thank you!), and Mr SGrabarczuk (WMF)). ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 01:56, 16 Νοεμβρίου 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Sarri.greek. Thank you for these suggestions. I'm glad to read that you're satisfied with the changes done since last year.

Your /testSarri page looks impressive – I will definitely analyze it! From a quick read, I see that some things are doable locally (like choosing different words instead of Show and Hide) and some other are not really part of the skin, and therefore are made by a different team with different priorities and projects (interwiki link categorization by the continent). Icon color - this piece is somewhat standardized, and will be standardized further, as Codex will be applied to more and more pieces of the software.

As far as I know, even though the immediate access to selected interwiki links has been suggested before, it doesn't seem likely that we would build it in the next months. I mean I don't make decisions myself, that's just what results from our focus on readability improvements and dark mode.

About the TOC (sorry if I'm asking for something you have written about before – if you have, just please share the links), why do you think Wiktionarians need to see the number of the language sections? Also, do Wiktionary readers need that as well, or less critically? And could you write more about the need for toclimit horizontal?

Again, thanks for putting this all together. Do you think it would be possible for you to explain the exact need for different things you are advocating for? I know this may objectively be difficult. But it's always much more helpful for the team to understand the need, the reason – the solution is secondary, and not always reflects the originally desired look. Let's maybe start with the TOC.

Last but not least, "help us with modules and applications" - at our team, we understand that very well. This isn't just about Vector 2022, and we won't come up quickly with any solution to this general problem, but because our changes affect interface admins, template editors, etc., we have started discussing what to do to reduce their burden. I hope we will continue this topic later, in a different discussion.

Thank you! SGrabarczuk (WMF) (συζήτηση) 04:12, 21 Νοεμβρίου 2023 (UTC)

Mr ☏ SGrabarczuk (WMF). Thank you Sir for your detailed response.

_1 things doable locally like Hide/Show words: but we have noone here that can 'do' things like that. We would expect someone from outside to apply them (!!HELP.needed)

_2 Interwiki link by continent: OK, I have seen it when I upload at Commons. I understand it is not changable. But why line-heights so huge? They make difficult to find something by scrolling for too long.

_3 Icon colors. I have seen sets (black-white-red-) at OOUI@commons (which sets are done with Codex as you informed). I thought that black icons on white background are a bit aggressive (they look like cockroaches). I guess that people in advertising have psychometric results on how much the tone could turn a bit to grey. I have no idea how these things are done.

_4 Selected interwiki links written separately. All we need locally is a module? that says: "for this page, if en.wikt exists, then write "en" here. We could take it from there and apply it where needed. But we have noone here to make such a module (!!HELP.needed).

_5.1. __TOC__ (My immediate reaction last year to Vector2022, was (apart from too much white space) the loss of magicword.TOC, apart from a ToC which may or may not be included in a skin.) We should not care what the skins are: they change and they will be changing every X years. But taking away from editors a widely used magicword, I felt was like cutting off our left hand.

_5.2. TOC numbered. Why numbered? It is a peculiarity of wiktionaries, to have many Language.Sections in one page. When their number is more than 10, 30, 80, we would like to know how many they are. Having said that, the numbers are not final: in an electronic page, sequence and numbers of sections can change any time. We do not make anchors and references as in written.bibliography e.g. #Go to 2.French section, 3.1.Etymology because 3.1. may become 4.2. any time. Still, I feel that full numbering has to be available, to editor's judgement to add when we feel that it is beneficial for all readers to take a look.

_5.3 TOC horizontal. example: wikt:en:A: A vertical TOC for this page is ridiculously long. Also, a toclimit is necessary. Big wikis have people to make horizontal TOCs as modules, but they are uncopiable. I know zero about Scribunto, and I go here and there begging for help, copypasting bits and pieces, trying to make wikt:el:Πρότυπο:toc-test [!!HELP.needed] A collection of TOC styles, could be available centrally for all -especially small wikis- to copypaste. Please! Give as a module for a TOC, fully numbered, with option to change columns at Level2, and a Horizontal numbered TOClimit2 to put in our pages, ALONG any skin's automatic Toc.

_6. Finally, we would like to ask if donations specifically to el.wiktionary can be done and how. This is very crucial. After 20 years, basics are covered and we need very specialized a.techsupport and b.linguistic.consultation, repository of books, etc.

I hope my naïve suggestions and simplistic thoughts, my old age's lack of technical things, the limited understanding of difficulties the WMF teams face every day, will not hinder modifications for wikationaries and small wikis. Thank you! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 05:14, 21 Νοεμβρίου 2023 (UTC)

Anhother example of horizontal TOC at it.wiktionary like wikt:it:volante ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 21:54, 3 Δεκεμβρίου 2023 (UTC)

@SGrabarczuk (WMF), please note that wherever @Sarri.greek is using "we", she means "I". It is the fr:nous de majesté, the en:royal we. She does not express the opinion of the community and certainly not my opinion. FocalPoint (συζήτηση) 21:23, 21 Νοεμβρίου 2023 (UTC)

Thanks @FocalPoint, that's an interesting [did I make an unintentional pun? 🥁] point. I'm a Wikipedian myself and I know that sometimes editors use these expressions not really meaning all or most of the active members of their communities. (Although I wouldn't agree that it's necessarily the royal we.) I do appreciate Sarri's continued involvement, though! Having said that, I'd like to encourage you to write more where you do agree, and where you don't :) SGrabarczuk (WMF) (συζήτηση) 02:54, 23 Νοεμβρίου 2023 (UTC)

@SGrabarczuk (WMF), indeed, the links must have had a smiley at the end. so I correct it here: I believe that Sarri.greek is using nous de majeste :) :) :) . My opinion is up there in Βικιλεξικό:Βικιδημία/2023Vector#+_Ο_Vector2022_είναι_κατάλληλος_για_wiktionary. We people are animals of habit. We are usually negative to change, even if the change is for the better. This is why I fight this natural urge, by changing as soon as possible. So I am using the skin in el-Wiktionary since several months, keeping the old skin in el-Wikipedia (trying to compare them). The adjustment period was a pain because of interwikis. Eventually I manage with both. The new one is overall a bit better, much much better in the section of TOC which is always available. FocalPoint (συζήτηση) 06:24, 23 Νοεμβρίου 2023 (UTC)

InterWiki Links

They are hiding the language panel — one of the crucial features for the users of Wiktionary be they logged-in or unregistered. Saboteurs or idiots? (Pardon my French.) — 2dk (συζήτηση) 21:55, 13 Ιανουαρίου 2024 (UTC)

☏ 2dk, No need to erase paragraphs. Also, no need for insulting epithets. The reason for underestimating interwiki languages, was because they had wikipedias in mind, not wiktionaries, I guess. I also feel strongly for Yes.interwiki at my left hand, even in wikipedias. Thank you. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 22:39, 13 Ιανουαρίου 2024 (UTC)